BKB is BROKEN, but sometimes usefull.
In the old days, it had 100% magic resistence and debuff imunity.
Now it is stated that implies in 1/2 M,R, and debuff imunity.
But...
The catch:

It is does not imply imunity from some debuffs (a lot to be honest).

Another thing is how it is calculated spell amplification.
10% + 10% is not 20%.

Back in the day people where noobs, and the old bkb was completly broken.

And why is having certain heroes rely heavily on certain items a bad thing? Almost every hero has a core item it MUST have to be viable, that is the result of the game existing for over 2 decades all the way through StarCraft up until now. The game has been figured out.

Dont be a grumpy old man, you're kinda clueless when its comes to design.

Originally posted by Dinsdale:

Back in the day people where noobs, and the old bkb was completly broken.

And why is having certain heroes rely heavily on certain items a bad thing? Almost every hero has a core item it MUST have to be viable, that is the result of the game existing for over 2 all the way through StarCraft up until now. The game has been figured out.

Dont be a grumpy old man, you're kinda clueless when its comes to design.

There is always an optimal play people will abuse, it is not possible to prevent this from game design perspective. If every item was as impactfull as other there wouldn't be meaning to pick them anyway

Originally posted by Piririm - Piririm - Piririm:

BKB is BROKEN, but sometimes usefull.
In the old days, it had 100% magic resistence and debuff imunity.
Now it is stated that implies in 1/2 M,R, and debuff imunity.
But...
The catch:

It is does not imply imunity from some debuffs (a lot to be honest).

Another thing is how it is calculated spell amplification.
10% + 10% is not 20%.

Sometimes useful? That's the problem, it is not sometimes but always... That's why I think there is a huge design issue.

Originally posted by Ebu-Mendil:

Originally posted by Dinsdale:

Back in the day people where noobs, and the old bkb was completly broken.

And why is having certain heroes rely heavily on certain items a bad thing? Almost every hero has a core item it MUST have to be viable, that is the result of the game existing for over 2 all the way through StarCraft up until now. The game has been figured out.

Dont be a grumpy old man, you're kinda clueless when its comes to design.

There is always an optimal play people will abuse, it is not possible to prevent this from game design perspective. If every item was as impactfull as other there wouldn't be meaning to pick them anyway

Exactly, but some people are obsessed by what could be called soft lock I guess. They think balance would mean that any draft would have an answer to any other draft.

When the time comes where every of the 120+ heroes can be built as right clickers, tank or caster then it will feel like every hero is the same.

Originally posted by Dinsdale:

Back in the day people where noobs, and the old bkb was completly broken.

And why is having certain heroes rely heavily on certain items a bad thing? Almost every hero has a core item it MUST have to be viable, that is the result of the game existing for over 2 decades all the way through StarCraft up until now. The game has been figured out.

Dont be a grumpy old man, you're kinda clueless when its comes to design.

Noobs? Back in the there were pro leagues, there was entry level TDA with amazing rules ( needed today, like perma ban or 3 months ban) there were dñdotalicious with high level, dotq has been competitive since 18 years ago man... I can assure you that dota is most imbalance today than 12 years ago.

I am not taking about roles, My issue with the game is the absolute reliance on one item.

Originally posted by TsudaTumiko:

Noobs? Back in the there were pro leagues, there was entry level TDA with amazing rules ( needed today, like perma ban or 3 months ban) there were dñdotalicious with high level, dotq has been competitive since 18 years ago man... I can assure you that dota is most imbalance today than 12 years ago.

I am not taking about roles, My issue with the game is the absolute reliance on one item.

Yes noobs, doesn't matter that pro leagues existed, the game wasn't figured out like it is now. Besides you could barely make a living wage if you werent playing for SK, MYM or any of the top asian teams.

The relience on items comes from years of experimentation, the game is old. Even if you changed something or added something new it would still feel like it has existed in some form in the game already if you play the game enough.

If you reverted DotA 2 to a state where it was 12 years ago you would see a mass exodus of players. Poor Man's Shield making tide nearly unkillable in lane, lol. Wraith Pact with -30% dmg aura, cringe. Bristlebacks running around with 5 Hood of Defiance insane regen and took close to 0 magic dmg, unstoppable in certain situations. Necronomicon 1/2/3, walking gem that could farm for you, balanced.

Lets not forget LC/furion/lycan jungle. Great times. If we go even further back, blink dagger that did not reset cooldown when taking damage, that was fun.

You're memory of what the game was in the past does not live up to your hype. The game is just old, you'd need to completly change heroes to make using other items viable.

I only get bkb when teams are balanced, if someone in my team doesn’t do shht and bkb is required I’d gladly lose but bkb is needed if enemies magic heroes can put you down in 3 seconds

BUT

You have to activated it.

That's whyI'm more towards likens and manta.

Originally posted by Dinsdale:

Originally posted by TsudaTumiko:

Noobs? Back in the there were pro leagues, there was entry level TDA with amazing rules ( needed today, like perma ban or 3 months ban) there were dñdotalicious with high level, dotq has been competitive since 18 years ago man... I can assure you that dota is most imbalance today than 12 years ago.

I am not taking about roles, My issue with the game is the absolute reliance on one item.

Yes noobs, doesn't matter that pro leagues existed, the game wasn't figured out like it is now. Besides you could barely make a living wage if you werent playing for SK, MYM or any of the top asian teams.

The relience on items comes from years of experimentation, the game is old. Even if you changed something or added something new it would still feel like it has existed in some form in the game already if you play the game enough.

If you reverted DotA 2 to a state where it was 12 years ago you would see a mass exodus of players. Poor Man's Shield making tide nearly unkillable in lane, lol. Wraith Pact with -30% dmg aura, cringe. Bristlebacks running around with 5 Hood of Defiance insane regen and took close to 0 magic dmg, unstoppable in certain situations. Necronomicon 1/2/3, walking gem that could farm for you, balanced.

Lets not forget LC/furion/lycan jungle. Great times. If we go even further back, blink dagger that did not reset cooldown when taking damage, that was fun.

You're memory of what the game was in the past does not live up to your hype. The game is just old, you'd need to completly change heroes to make using other items viable.

Lol man, do you think that a game that was played since 2005 was not figure out in 2008 or 2012? I understand you are young but please stop... I used to played 8 hours and train for local tournaments... It was absolutely figure out, that said, it has nothing to do with the BKB item.

Originally posted by TsudaTumiko:

Originally posted by Dinsdale:

Yes noobs, doesn't matter that pro leagues existed, the game wasn't figured out like it is now. Besides you could barely make a living wage if you werent playing for SK, MYM or any of the top asian teams.

The relience on items comes from years of experimentation, the game is old. Even if you changed something or added something new it would still feel like it has existed in some form in the game already if you play the game enough.

If you reverted DotA 2 to a state where it was 12 years ago you would see a mass exodus of players. Poor Man's Shield making tide nearly unkillable in lane, lol. Wraith Pact with -30% dmg aura, cringe. Bristlebacks running around with 5 Hood of Defiance insane regen and took close to 0 magic dmg, unstoppable in certain situations. Necronomicon 1/2/3, walking gem that could farm for you, balanced.

Lets not forget LC/furion/lycan jungle. Great times. If we go even further back, blink dagger that did not reset cooldown when taking damage, that was fun.

You're memory of what the game was in the past does not live up to your hype. The game is just old, you'd need to completly change heroes to make using other items viable.

Lol man, do you think that a game that was played since 2005 was not figure out in 2008 or 2012? I understand you are young but please stop... I used to played 8 hours and train for local tournaments... It was absolutely figure out, that said, it has nothing to do with the BKB item.

Dude I'm old, I started this when it was called Aeon of Strife in Brood War.

We have bkb because otherwise you wouldn't be able to play. And that means that in other case we would need to remove most control spells. And that would mean we would need to remove mobility heroes. That would make the game boring like lol.

BKB talk, but when talk about BKB for PA, I disagree that PA essentially means with BKB because she is still a good hero with Manta Style when there are few supportive teammates around during any team-gank. She is very good to battle certain heroes if she manages to skip the BKB and rush for another core item that necessary during the countermeasure strategy such as PA aims for early game BF and MKB can flip her into a role that helpful in the team to kill an annoying WR who pro in blasting the thundering during the team battles.

There are many situations where BKB can be skipped. Many players always play the BKB for PA because that item could provide good magic resistance and it blocks many spells with the immunity to debuff too. Thus, that becomes a culture of playing and the players keep focusing on BKB when they select and pick PA to be the core carry for the team. However, certain professionals who used to play in single playing or solo gaming turn the PA into their own styles and when their teammates failed to cooperate their PA, conflicts happened there.

During the past, when I was playing my PA, sometimes I used her for essential role in countermeasure some opponents only, and I never play as the core carry. Many games before, I played PA for many times and I like to use her as core carry who have to bear the front initiation. If your hero requires to bear some initials, BKB can play a good item.

If you speak about reworking of BKB, I prefer this item to be reworked into 2 separated items where first BKB can be used to resisting some physical damaging, and another can be used to resisting some magic damaging which means BKB can be combined into a better item by terms of physical and magical purposes with cheaper costs for respectively, and lower power of resisting first. Otherwise, many players always think this BKB will need to play big role when it comes to a situation because when the "amount" played is too high, the role is more essential.

Conclusion? The amount played for the item is important to be reviewed. Sometimes, I did have thought about the Divine Rapier item too by separating the item into few parts (lower gold costs) and much lower damaging first. The Divine Rapier seems too expensive already.

Regards,
MVP_lCE

Originally posted by MVP_lCE™:

BKB talk, but when talk about BKB for PA, I disagree that PA essentially means with BKB because she is still a good hero with Manta Style when there are few supportive teammates around during any team-gank. She is very good to battle certain heroes if she manages to skip the BKB and rush for another core item that necessary during the countermeasure strategy such as PA aims for early game BF and MKB can flip her into a role that helpful in the team to kill an annoying WR who pro in blasting the thundering during the team battles.

There are many situations where BKB can be skipped. Many players always play the BKB for PA because that item could provide good magic resistance and it blocks many spells with the immunity to debuff too. Thus, that becomes a culture of playing and the players keep focusing on BKB when they select and pick PA to be the core carry for the team. However, certain professionals who used to play in single playing or solo gaming turn the PA into their own styles and when their teammates failed to cooperate their PA, conflicts happened there.

During the past, when I was playing my PA, sometimes I used her for essential role in countermeasure some opponents only, and I never play as the core carry. Many games before, I played PA for many times and I like to use her as core carry who have to bear the front initiation. If your hero requires to bear some initials, BKB can play a good item.

If you speak about reworking of BKB, I prefer this item to be reworked into 2 separated items where first BKB can be used to resisting some physical damaging, and another can be used to resisting some magic damaging which means BKB can be combined into a better item by terms of physical and magical purposes with cheaper costs for respectively, and lower power of resisting first. Otherwise, many players always think this BKB will need to play big role when it comes to a situation because when the "amount" played is too high, the role is more essential.

Conclusion? The amount played for the item is important to be reviewed. Sometimes, I did have thought about the Divine Rapier item too by separating the item into few parts (lower gold costs) and much lower damaging first. The Divine Rapier seems too expensive already.

Regards,
MVP_lCE

there is no way, you will see a PA in ancient with bkb, even less in a tournament, why? becaues bkb is mandatory in every game, is a design flaw.

A kind of balance between total fun and total reality.