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i edited the OP to reveal the thread title.
i want to sum a lot of the original point up by re-responding to a comment.
i believe Matpat was ultimately correct, but there were a lot of things i didn't agree with.
i more closely followed the lore perspective of mossbag.
however, as i believe explained somewhere in the OP. there was 1 key sequence that mossbag over-looked. the Climb from the birthplace
"The Birthplace"
the cracked egg within the abyss is yours. the PK has united with the Void to be reborn (transform/evolve).
this is why you are able to see your reflection the first time you enter. the dream you access is yours as you dream-nail your reflection.
you did have to climb out of the abyss and are reliving that memory. however, you are also seeing your memory as PK before you did all of this.
these are 2 memories of 2 different points in time that are being played out simultaneously. this is why we also see the event in which the PK greets the HK at the top.
those words were not spoken to you. you are "not" the Hollow Knight. you spoke those words to the Hollow Knight, and that is your memory of it.
tl;dr
"your" reflection on "your" Birth-egg, allows "you" to access "your" prior memories before birth.
in "your" memories, "you" (The Knight) view the moment the Pale King first conversed with the Hollow Knight.
the Hollow Knight is someone else and still alive, so that's "not you".
"you" are the Pale King.
i suppose i'll edit that into the OP as well.
i have another discovery that relates to this that i'll explore soon. i may have found a possible likely scenario to explain the PK's and WP's disappearances, as well some oddities to the White Lady. i'll probably add it all here since it's closely related.
this starts to break into the "discovery" i referred to in my prior post, but we actually do find a second husk in the game. within the White Palace, the Pale King's body sit empty on his throne.
maybe the Wyrm just died of old age on his throne, since i cannot find anything to suggest he was murdered. that seems unlikely for a Wyrm though. it's more likely that the PK has changed forms.
this section will be a mix of fact and theory, keep that in mind.
why was the WP hidden? what's with the white sheets over all the furniture?
i believe... he planned to return. i believe the PK originally planned to use the Hollow Knight as the seal, but had an extreme change of heart after bonding with with the HK. (as seen from the memory of the PK's guard)
after this "bonding", the PK sought ways to change the outcome. multiple ways.
1. just taking the HK's place and reinforcing the Seal, giving his son the eternal rest deserved. although i don't believe PK would realize all of this when going this route.
2. destroy the issue. this is where the PK's grand foresight comes to fruition.
PK, perhaps with great risk, hid the White Palace in a place that is extremely hidden AND a place that he might access in his future life, knowing he would have lost memory of it.
for 2., we go to the WP for 2 things related. the first being the memory from Path of Pain.
the second being the half of the Kingsoul, which allows us into the Birthplace to view "another" memory.
these 2 memories show the PK's greatest joy, his bonding with his son the HK, and show us our mission...
lifting the curse we placed upon our greatest joy.
i'll add more to this later, there's some stuff i have to flush out though. either way i'll still read anything wrote.
it would be hard to bluntly explain this attribution, but it's rather fitting from a personal view.
this thread is already too long to post lyrics.
https://node2.projectplanet.cn/@steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3017803263
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ8sYoYUypM
"It is true. True, that you were awaited. No. Perhaps that is inaccurate. True one like you was awaited.
I have a gift, held long for one of your kind."
If there was a plan for PK to transform again, you'd think the White Lady would be in on it. If she was in on it, she wouldn't have specified "one like you" or "one of your kind". She's clearly referring to the Vessels when she says such things, otherwise she wouldn't have corrected herself.
Second, you say the White Lady can clearly see you specifically, yet she's surprised when you enter the room. The very first thing she says is the exclamation of surprise, "Ah!". If she could see you any better than the other vessels, she probably would've seen you coming before you entered the room. The reason she can see you better than Dryya and the mantis traitors is probably due to the fact that you're the child of not one, but two higher beings, in addition to being filled with Void, and being her own child.
Lastly, Grimm says the following upon being Dreamnailed after his fight:
"Masterful! Even a vessel discarded bears fierce strength.
Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm."
Grimm seems to have known of the plan PK had for the kingdom, as he knows you are a Vessel. Furthermore, he specifically states you were "discarded", implying that you were checked by PK, deemed impure, and cast back into the abyss. If Grimm knew all this, he would probably have known about any plans of transformation to prolong the kingdom. In addition, the salutation "dear" may imply that he actually knew the Pale King personally, in which case he would possibly be able to recognize PK even if he had transformed. After all, Grimm has traveled to many kingdoms, and possibly seen many higher beings, maybe even seeing several Wyrms. We know that other Wyrms exist, given the "Battle of the Blackwyrm" we see mentioned with the White Defender Dreamnail dialogue.
Overall, your theory has some weight to it. And I respect you for putting all this effort into it. You clearly thought a lot of it out and took your time finding all the evidence for it. I disagree with your theory, but it was well made.
Have an award.
i'm actually quite happy you bring these 2 characters up in such a way. coincidentally, they both have a similar explanation. (in theory)
there was an original plan the White Lady knew about. then there was the change of plans after PK bonded with HK. a plan worked on secret when he moved the White Palace to the Dream world. the White Lady already gone in hiding to repent for role in the deed.
you can also add to the initial presumptions of the White Lady with words from a whole slew of characters too.
Jiji and Jinn, the Maskmaker, Bardoon. it's truly a large list.
there is a common theme among many of them though that carry extra dialogue after progression. "surprise". not only do you just exceed in expectations, but you leave them with just as many questions as we have.
take extra note to Jinn's words, they'll continue being referenced.
this quote is after obtaining the Void Heart, so it's easy to just line it up to that, but take notice of the wording.
edit: cutting to the chase, the melding with the void in such a way has hidden the true identity of The Knight from everyone, including himself before remembering.
also take heavy note of the underlined words "long shadow" from Jinn. odd characteristic for someone who is "small".
i don't often bold my own words, but i find this such a heavy hint that i really want to stress it.
a-01
this may be the least convincing, but i'll start with it.
a-02
although the reason for leaving Hallownest was not established, The Knight "did" at least leave Hallownest.
though some are aware of what you are, no one recognizes you, even though you've been there before. you are also the most powerful being in Hallownest, hard to miss.
William seems to almost let the cat out of the bag before asking if it was a spoiler.
The Knight's genderless nature was firmly stated before he said this, so what spoiler was he hiding?
early on, they said "he". but that was "before the character even..." before the character what? transformed perhaps? ..."we kinda knew what the character is." if they were just unaware The Knight would be genderless, there was no spoiler there to be hiding, but you can tell they are actively dancing around something.
a-03
"you" are The Knight, and you "choose" the path yourself.
to strengthen this rather weak argument, i'll remind you of 2 characters in which you decide if they live or die. (there's more than 2, but these 2 have consequence in future dialogue)
Zote and the Nailsmith.
there are a couple occasions you can decide to free Zote. (i'm glossing over this for now)
most notable though, is the choice given and taken by the Nailsmith to kill him or not. if you were "hollow", and were just going to kill him, you would have already done so.
if you were just a hollow "yes-man" and just blindly handed over geo when he told you to, you'd also likely slash him to bits when he told you to.
both sides of being hollow could apply singly, but having the choice to do the opposite, breaks them both simultaneously. it is a choice that you make. (if you make it)
-
it's not likely that this section will make it to the final cut, but i want to explore a few ideas with Zote. this character is a walking contradiction to itself and the lore.
Zote bears striking resemblance to The Knight and his siblings. we are told that Zote supposedly comes from outside of Hallownest.
however there are a few reasons i believe his home is actually Hallownest, and Zote has some sort of issue with memory.
much in a way The Knight has left the Abyss and immediately left Hallownest, only to return to it without any memory of it.
none of the NPC's have seen you before, so i can't imagine you hung around the area after leaving the Abyss.
although you do start without a quill, after obtaining both the map and quill, you'd think The Knight would be able to roughly fill in some blanks, but he can't.
although there is plenty to suggest there at least "was" outside civilizations, it's hard to state that there still is. the Grimm Troupe is... different... seemingly living in between plains of existence.
other bugs have settled into Hallownest, but there may have been some grand catastrophe or something that forced them all to move there.
it's hard to say this quote is talking about anything more than a calamity facing Hallownest specifically, but it would be sensible for it to have had a further-reaching effect. hence why there was a sudden surge of bugs using the well only to enter the ruins of a kingdom.
either way, if we are to believe the above lore tablet, there is currently nothing outside of Hallownest. at least in terms of civilization.
it's hard to say much about the "others", but i believe they are closer than we realize.
back to point, Zote is truly weak. it's unlikely that he was able to cross any length of wilderness without dying. it's also unlikely that he could have even survived in Hallownest for any length of time before you appear. since you have to save him on multiple occasions.
it is more likely, that Zote's actual time-line has started around the same time The Knight's does.
-----
-----
-Elderbug is not so old-
Elderbug makes multiple references to the kingdom before ruin, but as passed tense.
there's a few issues with Elderbug being an actual elder.
1. being that he's simply not old. it appears that he reached Dirtmouth, saw the well, then said "i'll take that house".
2. for never being inside the kingdom, or exploring outside Dirtmouth, he has a large knowledge of locations and events, seemingly without ever witnessing them.
it's also unlikely that he would obtain this knowledge from other bugs.
the only bug likely to return with extensive knowledge of the prior kingdom is Sly. he was living a double life as a merchant though, so it's unlikely that he would discuss much of anything about his past.
i believe Elderbug is also a sibling of yours, and much like Zote, his existence appears to have started around The Knight's time-line. kind of...
-The Abyss-
there's a few more areas here that seem to be out of place by themselves:
the Lifeblood Chamber
the Abyss Shriek room
the Study
the Lighthouse
within the study we find the Void Tendril imprint, giving us this...
being this is in the study, i think it's safe to assume someone was studying how Abyss took form.
with the Abyss Shriek room, it seems like someone was trying to give a voice to the Void.
the Lighthouse seems to have connection with Soul. although the PK opposed Soul Master experimenting with it, it is being used to hold back the Void Lake.
there's a good chance the reason the Abyss has so many of your sibling's corpses, is because the Void destroyed them. before obtaining the Void Heart everything is aggressive to you, even though you are also born of Void.
the Lighthouse may have been used to hold back the Void from the rest of your siblings.
with the Abyss sealed, there seems to have been no threat from the Void until you opened the door.
the Lifeblood Chamber, i believe was used to give life to some of your siblings. i'm uncertain when it started being used, but it likely came before the infusing of soul.
this would explain the Abyss Creature within the Lifeblood Chamber having life and form, but lack any sort of function. it's as if the Abyss Creature, was just another experiment.
"No cost too great" could be additionally describing a sacrifice Joni had to make specifically for this "pure" Vessel.
all of these places being in the Abyss leave me to believe the HK was not the first to make it out of the Abyss, but the first "pure" Vessel to make it out.
i believe characters like Elderbug and Zote, and even HK, had intervention in their nature.
focus on a few of the lines while climbing the Abyss.
"No cost too great.
No mind to think.
No will to break.
No voice to cry suffering."
No mind to think- all Elderbug is, is a sack of knowledge with no will to implement it.
No will to break- Zote, is the embodiment of "will". he lacks everything else, and despite conversing with you regularly, he is nearly always mistaken by events.
the most convincing moment of how brainless he actually is, is when you defeat his dream version and Bretta leaves the village. he continues rambling his precepts without even realizing no one is listening to him. he is lacking mind to think.
No voice to cry suffering- i think it was natural to think his creations would need a voice. which is why Elderbug and Zote both have voices. having the Abyss Shriek room in an area that you want the product to be voiceless, seems counter-productive. so i imagine this was only used early off in experiment.
i believe Zote and Elderbug are progressive, but ultimately failed products, and limited to the personality and life that their mask has granted them.
i also think this is why Zote's dream variant, is "Grey" Prince Zote.
Grey could almost be used in place of Pale, but it's not the same. it's as if Grey represents being a product of the PK, but not "born of God".
labeling HK the "pure" Vessel, gives me the feeling that there were unpure Vessels before him.
this is supported by seeing the Broken Vessel. it's hard to say if Broken Vessel was infected while it was alive, or the infection animating a corpse.
most mysteriously, this is the only Vessel that doesn't lose body after death.
this leaves me to believe it was infected while it was alive, it's like the infection overcame the Void nature physically.
but i believe Broken Vessel to be one of the first Vessels out of the Abyss.
--------------------------------------------------------
a-04
this quote not only hints at understanding the "darkness" (from which numerous shade reside). but keys in on the ability to come to terms with regret. this is not just defeating your own shade, but having the ability take it back inside you. something that none of your other siblings seem to be able to do.
i believe it's actually a slightly disguised, supreme praise to the Knight's mental ability.
at the same time showing either awe or fear when thinking of the darkness you come from.
i believe this also has double meaning. "darkness" was a key word to use when you have just defeated your shade. that itself is a direct correlation to shade and void.
i believe that sentence went deeper and also used "darkness" to represent an event that the PK learned to come to terms with their regret.
this "event" being the failure of protecting his kingdom and having to sacrifice child. then coming to terms with failure and sacrificing himself to fix what his lack of foresight has caused.
***post 11-12 holds all of my prior writing for this subject. some may make it back on OP, but i needed space. 1 post to store my prior work wasn't enough, so both post 11-12 hold this info now. (18k char limit)***
a-02
all of the White Lady's dialogue is a hint to your special status.
i do not believe she ever believes you are PK though. i believe the Void you have taken inside you, has made it impossible for anyone to recognize your prior self.
there is a reoccurring theme for characters to be surprised by your actions. especially by characters who have knowledge of what you are.
she first sees you as just an empty vessel planned to replace the Hollow Knight.
you then surpass her expectations after defeating Hornet.
then again after obtaining the Dreamnail.
now i hear you, "big whoop, so you're a better vessel than they thought you'd be."
that's not quite the case though. it is confirmed that multiple siblings have risen from the Abyss.
the White Lady, only has a keen sense for "you" specifically though, so it's not just a family relation thing.
the White Lady has seemingly lost quite a bit of her power and is unable to even sense her protector laying dead outside her door.
somehow though, she senses you, and not just in a small way, but very clearly sense your aura.
oddly, even with being able to sense the Knight so clearly, she is unable to sense anything outside of his presence. thoughts are secret from her.
i believe this is because The Knight has the same Pale energy as PK. not "like" PK, but his very same godly aura. the Void that he has taken into himself, has fundamentally changed his aura. this is how she has such a connection to it, but is unable to recognize it.
being in the presence of her "beloved Wyrm", i imagine is only in reference to the charm you obtained. however, her being able to sense "only" your presence in this world even before having this charm, is something unique at the least, and not shared with your other siblings except who she calls "The Vessel" (HK). however, i believe that's more due to the whole of that situation involving seals and corruption and yada yada. she makes special note of only being able to "register" the "small one" (you), who she believes is standing next to Ogrim, and not just wearing a charm that smells like him.
---------------------------------------------
a-04
Bardoon is not convinced that the PK is dead. although he first speaks like he's talking uncertainly about the corpse within Kingdom's Edge, he follows up referencing the "failed kingdom" of the PK's. so he does have direct knowledge of his first transformation.
to speak this phrase in a question like manner, leaves me to believe he's alluding to other events without addressing them directly.
i wouldn't quite say this is surpassing expectations, but sudden intrigue is introduced.
i am only listing this quote for referencing to the "Union" and "Void".
Jinn starts to take notice of what you are becoming. not only do you surpass her expectations, but she starts to realize just how "different" you are from the rest... err, above the rest.
i'll admit it's difficult to claim that Jinn's masters are at a status above even Higher Gods, but i don't think it's all that far-fetched either.
she takes notice of your King's Brand, but does not seem all that impressed by a king.
it's only after returning with the Void Heart that she takes interest, and compares you to her masters.
i believe this was another quote with more meaning. being compared to her masters is noteworthy, acknowledging you are on a whole higher lvl than she is. however, it's also noteworthy that she sees you as "more complete" "like her masters". i believe the "others" have also harnessed the power of Void. ***debate use***
extra bonus proof that the Knight "does" have a mind and will of his own.
this may seem out of place, but it's truly not, and something i believe to be a key piece in aligning The Knight to PK.
Vessels are hollow. i used to believe that they had some hidden emotions.
Broken Vessel would reach it's arm out as it was dying. HK would aid you and attempt to kill itself.
however, i believe these are actually the actions of the infection.
Broken Vessel's infection needing it's host to survive (as is).
the reason the infection would aid in HK's suicide, would be to release the Radiance.
this is why the HK is so conflicted during battle. it is trying to survive and hold back the infection, as that is it's only purpose, but the Radiance wants out.
Vessels "are" hollow, but The Knight is "not".
the above quote is pretty clear cut, but it's not the only thing to confirm this.
a-01
a-03
#1 addition -
there are a few references to The Knight resembling the Pale King. i need to confirm this, but i believe this quote can be seen before obtaining King's Brand. which i believe would be unique.
***post 11-12 holds all of my prior writing for this subject. some may make it back on OP, but i needed space. 1 post to store my prior work wasn't enough, so both post 11-12 hold this info now. (18k char limit)***
sorry to spam this thread today, i didn't realize there was a char limit that would give me issues.
what makes you believe they are separate beings? it helps to know where i should put more focus, as i'm already 100% sold. relating knowledge is rather difficult to do without typing so much that no one will read it.
pk made the vessels and you See them in the same room AT THE SAME TIME