Brotato

Brotato

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Ranged Damage is weak. Especially guns.
- Too dependent on pumpkin: if you don't find it, you can never come close to what an average melee build can do in the first 20 waves. Once you find pumpkin, the game feels normal again. DLC adds more ways to pierce but only 1 item reduces the penalty so it actually matters. Feels really bad finding eyepatch instead of pumpkin! We already had enough pierce with sharpbullet+bandana. No other playstyle requires 1 item so badly, not even elemental or engineering. You only have to find pocketfactory once, but a ranged build has to find tons of pumpkins.

- Because pierce mostly doesn't work without pumpkin past wave 9, you tend to build up crowds of enemies. You never attack from any farther away than a melee character would, but your guns don't do the damage of melee weapons. The advantage of guns (range) never shows itself. Once you find 3 pumpkins or 50 knockback it starts to feel like guns aren't just bad inaccurate melee weapons.

- Guns have a terrible set bonus. Medium amount of added range when you already have lots of range. A thiefdagger build buying glasses gets more real value from range than a gun build completing a full set. Tags like blunt/heavy/primitive/medieval carry your defense in early waves while a ranged build has to buy all that from items (while being unable to find ranged damage).

- Ricochet is still a complete joke. Legitimately worse than Torture. At least make it so pumpkin reduces the bounce penalty! You know, the bounce penalty that is completely hidden and never mentioned anywhere. Can't wait to buy tons of ricochets so I can lose!

- Lack of low level ranged damage items: it's way easier to find melee damage, AND you find it at 2x the value (hedgehog etc all have this pattern). You can play a ranged damage character with 6 guns and build higher melee than ranged by accident just by trying to buy enough HP with commons.

- The 2x value pattern on items makes no sense. Melee attacks have infinite pierce AND you buy their damage way cheaper, why? It's made as if enemies aren't running into melee range of your guns getting tickled all game no matter what.

- The shop is overall melee-sided. Guns have to buy 200 luck to get the items they need?

- Melee can build around healing with consumables and regen, Ranged wants to build around lifesteal and regen. Lifesteal is the weakest healing source in the game, and the most expensive/rare to buy. Lifesteal has 2 forms of hard cap: 10/sec and 1/attack, both are totally unnecessary. Other forms of healing have no cap like this - jerky consumables or fairy regen can carry your build's healing on their own in the first 20 waves.
Have fun with no healing until you find tons of tentacles and goblets on wave 25! Melee characters can use both of those more effectively than you, of course.

- Manual aim is ineffective, there's no way to target big important enemies other than running into melee range. The most consistent way to play guns is to use a bunch of shotguns and play like a weak melee character, since stuff like lasergun just wastes damage on little guys half the time.

- Pretty much all the new spellcasters are anti-ranged. Tendency of ranged is to let back-line enemies stay alive longer, so you spend more time pressured by spells while a melee character runs in to clear them fast. If I have to use shotguns and run in to clear them, why am I playing long range guns? Once you find some pumpkins on wave 28, you can start easily killing molluscs the way a melee build does when it first sees them on 17.

- Pistol is probably the weakest weapon in the whole game. Totally pointless having it in there. You can reroll your shop searching for pumpkins and find pistols, what a great deal!

Very unfortunate stuff! I think the piercing and bouncing penalties alone totally ruin ranged. Everything else just compounds the issue.
Last edited by elite outsider; 3 Nov @ 3:36pm
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Showing 1-15 of 40 comments
Bumc 2 Nov @ 12:38pm 
There is not much point hunting for ranged damage in shops, guns seem to work on potatoes that can put most their level up points in RD.
Its not many, but still probably more than can get away with picking up precise or unarmed.

Sure you get 2x less ranged damage than melee, but SMGs base attack speed makes up for the difference against single targets, and you crowd control by staying above the curve or lucking into stuff like bearded baby.
yes, baby with a beard is one of the strongest items .. needing a single purple item to have crowd control is almost bad as needing a single blue item to fix the pierce penalty. you can play 20 wave runs with guns and never find baby, because your build is too pressured to get enough luck on top of all the other problems. melee players will find it more often because their builds are easier so they accelerate.

do you play a lot of danger 5?
seems like ranged damage is biased down in levelups as well. interested to know if somebody can confirm that..

smg is the opposite of good against single targets, unless those single targets are extremely small and nonthreatening

do jack players love to choose smg a lot? no.

how do you stay above curve when everything about ranged is weaker than every other option? only play loud and demon?
Last edited by elite outsider; 2 Nov @ 12:59pm
GaviJa 2 Nov @ 1:06pm 
Me who tried to play with blunderbuss. 5.2s reload. You clear a wave, no weapon in the shop = you're dead next wave because you can't kill ♥♥♥♥
yeah, blunderbuss is such a weak new weapon. you always need to get your attack speed up in any serious build, so its advantage isn't very useful. if you want to reset cooldowns, obviously just play buccaneer and use other weapons that are stronger..

who has an easier time picking up materials safely to reset blunderbuss? a gun build or a melee build that accidentally bought a blunderbuss?
Last edited by elite outsider; 2 Nov @ 1:09pm
for ranged, baby with a beard is essential

for melee, rip and tear is overkill/net negative (can't crit so it robs you of money, can't trigger giant belt). best use of rip and tear is actually with ranged damage sources (so you get the aoe that resembles a melee hit from far away). hope you like building both damage types AND explosion size just for this..

weird.
Last edited by elite outsider; 2 Nov @ 1:17pm
Zarkawi 2 Nov @ 4:19pm 
Originally posted by elite outsider:
yeah, blunderbuss is such a weak new weapon. you always need to get your attack speed up in any serious build, so its advantage isn't very useful. if you want to reset cooldowns, obviously just play buccaneer and use other weapons that are stronger..

who has an easier time picking up materials safely to reset blunderbuss? a gun build or a melee build that accidentally bought a blunderbuss?

Blunderbuss is not intended as a weapon that you put in all 6 slots. It's a weapon that you take 1 or 2 of in a ranged build and it will likely do more damage than your other weapons. Being fully reliant on getting materials to do damage is bad, but getting a massive damage burst any time you get them while still being able to fight WITHOUT them is the intent.
Ric 2 Nov @ 5:03pm 
Ranged relies on mixing more than running 6x one weapon. Unless you pull piercing early, you should always snag 1-2 shredders, and then adapt from there. Heavy doses of Luck & harvest levels/items during waves 2-11 allow you to build up the resources and pulls you need to snowball waves 12-20. They're definitely not weak, and Blunderbuss absolutely is game-shatteringly strong at tier 3-4 in isolation if you are running a hefty amount of pick-up vacuum. You can cowboy straight into a horde and insta-gib everything.

Ranged isn't weak at all. Nearly finished D5'ing everything in the Abyss and half those runs ran a mix of SMG, Blunderbusses, Shredders, Rockets, & Grenade Launchers (also crazy strong in the DLC).
Eh. you just go Renegade with 3 x bullets. Makes things like the Laser pistol silly for the first 20 levels, you do need some attack speed however
okay i'm gonna go load back into my wave 50 d5 loud run where i went thief daggers for the first 35 waves and then easily swapped over to chainguns with my silly infinite stats. somehow i don't think i could reliably do this every run if i started with guns instead of thief daggers.

thanks for the replies though i guess. i kinda don't buy it though!
Last edited by elite outsider; 2 Nov @ 7:31pm
Cryten 2 Nov @ 8:16pm 
That is one odd response to most people agreeing with you while others have found range viable but not knocked your points. Myself I find ranged the superior experience on crash sight but the new enemy types seem to punish ranged a bit more. I just run for wave 20 though, endless is a completely different kettle of fish.
Last edited by Cryten; 2 Nov @ 8:18pm
Originally posted by Cryten:
That is one odd response to most people agreeing with you while others have found range viable but not knocked your points.

"you just go renegade" (??????? insanely weak character with no endless potential)
"beat d5 on everything with smg and shredder" (????????? total fiction???????)

yeah great agreeable replies from people who clearly do deep endless d5 runs all the time, so true

like really, shredder? the second worst gun in the game? show me a video of your epic shredder d5 runs on every character
Last edited by elite outsider; 2 Nov @ 8:19pm
Ric 2 Nov @ 9:56pm 
Endless D5 is boring to me. The game isn't balanced around Wave 21+. It's also very silly to expect every character to run the same weapons (You miss-quoted what I said, where I said "Nearly finished D5'ing everything in the Abyss and half those runs...", meaning I did not use those same weapons). I play the game the way it's meant to be played: Adapting. I rarely ever lose anymore on D5 1-20, Crash Zone or Abyss, and I get through that by simply taking the character and leaning on its strengths.

It's clear though that your measure of value is Endless, which is fine, but the opening thread you made focused on the weakness of ranged weapons, and they're not weak if you can complete 1-20. If your fixation is on Endless potential, then you might be right.

But I don't care about Endless.
Last edited by Ric; 2 Nov @ 9:59pm
britking 2 Nov @ 11:29pm 
Guns are solid. I love ranged weapons. SMG with life steal is about as "easy mode" as it gets. As soon as you get a single pierce, it's more or less a win--no pumpkin needed. They nerfed the chain gun, but it's still incredibly powerful. Pick up a fan? Game over.
Jaasrg 3 Nov @ 12:28am 
Endless complaint?
Endless complaint.
Should have added that in the title/at the start so readers would have known the right tone to take.
Moncho 3 Nov @ 1:15am 
4 SMGs + life steal for healing and focus damage
2 Shredders/Rocket Launchers for big groups
Some dodge
Easy win every time.
Last edited by Moncho; 3 Nov @ 1:15am
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